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'No sign of decrease in cross-border terrorism'
Kalyani Shankar:
The capital punishment for Afzal Guru is in focus again. No one
understands why the Delhi Government had kept it for four years and
suddenly woken up to deal with this. How long do you think it will
take for a final decision? Secondly, why such a long queue of people
who were given capital punishment even after Supreme Court verdict?
GK Pillai: See, after the Supreme
Court verdict, all these accused persons have the right to file mercy
petition to be considered by the government. We get the comments from
State Governments concerned and it is examined in the Ministry on
merits and the recommendations with the approval of Union Home
Minister, is then made to the President of India for consideration.
The President of India, not just the present one, but in the past
also, they have been hesitant in terms of imposing capital punishment,
and therefore, they have been raising their reservations on whether it
should be done, whether there is a chance for looking at it again.
And in this process, the matter has got very unduly delayed.
Kalyani Shankar: The case of Afzal
Guru is something different. You know, they were trying to take over
the Parliament and if they had succeeded, they would have killed most
of our leaders at that time. Is that not on a different track than
what we normally look at.
GK Pillai : I don’t think the merits
of the case that somebody has been found guilty, to me that is not
into question at all. It is after that, under our laws, he still has
a right to file a mercy petition and that mercy petition has to be
examined and the recommendation of the Union Home Minister is actually
binding on the President. The government in one sense has not been
able to persuade the President to sign off on the death penalty. The
matter is getting delayed. The final decision which I think the
political system will have to take. The Delhi Government go with the
recommendations of the Union Home Minister and it will go to the
President and the President will then have to take a decision.
Kalyani Shankar: Do you think that
there is a need to change the government strategy in tackling the Naxalites ? Secondly, does the Home Ministry want more powers and
broader mandate to deal with this?
GK Pillai : See, the strategy of the
Government of India is very clear. It is, as the Union Home Minister
puts it, is a two-pronged strategy – one to provide security to the
people in the area and the second is to ensure development reaches the
people. I think we need to very clearly distinguish, because there is
lot of confusion between Naxals, Maoists and so on. I think what is
very clear is that the CPI-Maoists have a name and objective which is
laid down in their documents alone, which is the overthrow of the
Indian State by armed means. In so far as the Government is
concerned, this is an organisation which has been banned as a
terrorist organisation, an unlawful organisation. Current strategy
looks at providing what I would call as “secure areas”, that as I put,
a security grid in an area where there is, shall I say little or no
governance and then having put that security grid which is by way of
a police station and paramilitary forces to give security to the
people, the local administration moves in immediately to build roads,
primary health centres, public distribution system and so on. This is
something which we have started only post-November 2009, so it is less
than six months.
And we see the impact of that in
limited areas where we have operated, for sheer lack of, shall I say,
policemen. There are many areas where we have not been able to reach
out to and Dantewada was one such area where we have yet to move into.
Our strategy is possibly to move into that area in about a year, a
year and half’s time.
Kalyani Shankar: But you know, the
Maoists are still retaliating. It happened in Dantewada twice. They
seem to be targeting the CRPF and even sometimes innocent people. You
say that are not enough policemen. What is the State Government
doing? Why they have not been recruiting more people?
GK Pillai: Yes, we are short. In
fact, as per the sanction strength of policemen which is itself very
small, we are short of about 3.5 lakh policemen in the country. But
if I need the norm of 220 policemen for a lakh of population which is
the UN norm for developing countries, I need about 8 lakh policemen.
So, I have to recruit eight lakh policemen, I am recruiting now this
year about a lakh and a half. So it is going to take me about five
years literally to recruit eight lakh policemen, to have the full
complement where I am in a position to have enough policemen in police
stations. No doubt that within five to seven years we will be able to
control the situation completely.
Kalyani Shankar : Well, in the
meantime, if the Maoists attack some other places, what is your
counter ?
GKPillai: They will attack because
their strategy is to try and disperse forces as much as possible. We
have to stay concentrated on our particular action. While in some
areas the Maoists may gain, where they are not there today. In other
areas we are actually taking back territory which, shall I say in Kanker district, we have possibly taken back about 3000-4000
kilometers of area.
Kalyani Shankar : The Prime Minister
is likely to visit Jammu and Kashmir next month and may resume talks
with the separatists like Hurriyat. What will be the basis of the
talks and secondly, how far is the Government willing to go in meeting
their demands.
GK Pillai : The Prime Minister has
set up various Round Tables and the recommendations of the Round
Tables have come to the Government. These are under discussion to
deal with the whole series of elements---from the issues of
development to autonomy and so on. Now, each one of these are
separately being processed and examined in consultation with the State
Government. We have had, I may say, what the Union Home Minister
called “quiet diplomacy”, with many of the separatist leaders.
These are primarily to find out what
is it exactly that they want. You cannot be just talking about the
generalities. Now, once we come to a very clear understanding of what
the separatists want in terms of autonomy, then it is possible for us
to be able to move forward towards that goal. Simultaneously, we are
now moving forward in terms of cross-border LoC trade, people are
moving from Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and vice
versa. That itself has been very largely welcomed in the state and we
have seen that as normalcy starts to improve, tourism has been good
this year, the Amarnath Yatra went off peacefully. People realised
that there is a stake for them in the system. I think you will find
the forces for peace have pushed this dialogue process further.
Kalyani Shankar: But, what would be
the Prime Minister’s agenda. I mean, when he is talking to them, there
should be something on the table.
GKPillai: See, I think at this stage,
we have not got a very clear idea from the separatists themselves as
to what is their demand in concrete general terms. So, it is very
important for us to continue the dialogue and the reason why some of
it is required to kept quiet is because of the so many competing
groups, that if you don’t keep it relatively quiet among themselves,
each one will only be trying to outdo the other to take an extreme
position which does not help us to move the dialogue further. Quiet
diplomacy has started. The fact is that Pakistan is very unhappy with
the quiet diplomacy. It is a very strange aspect that Pakistan would
say that it is an issue which has to be solved between India and Jammu
and Kashmir and Pakistan and they would love to talk with the
separatists. But when we talk to the separatists, the Pakistanis are
all up in arm. And this is what exactly the separatists themselves
told Pakistan when they went there. They said we talk with you, the
Indian Government does not object, but when we talk with Indian
Government, why do you object? And it just shows in one sense, what
shall I say, the contradictions in the Pakistan policy.
Kalyani Shankar : Does the Home
Ministry think that the cross-border terrorism in the Jammu & Kashmir
region has decreased ? Is there any possibility of demilitarisation on
the border ?
GK Pillai: I don’t think the
cross-border terrorism has shown any signs of decrease. From all
available indications, the number of training camps for terrorists in
Pak-occupied Kashmir, and may be in Pakistan itself, there has been no
decrease at all and we have literally infiltration from across the
border on a daily basis.
Kalyani Shankar : In spite of that
there is demand for demilitarisation, even from parties like the PDP.
But the Government has reduced some forces.
GK Pillai : Yes, in 2009 it has
considerably reduced, I think a total of about 30,000 paramilitary
forces were taken away. The Army itself has reduced. And to a certain
extent, the Jammu & Kashmir police have taken their own steps to
strengthen themselves. There has been a recruitment of about 9,000
Jammu & Kashmir policemen. We have also, what we would call as part
of efforts to see that there is visible impact of what we call as
demilitarization, ensure that all paramilitary forces except when they
are on combat duty against the militants, would all be in khaki
uniform. We have also drawn up a programme and we hope by the end of
2010, we should be able to have got all the paramilitary forces and
the military, out of what we would call as ‘sensitive locations’, that
is where they were occupying schools, where they were occupying
government buildings, where they were occupying stadiums and so on,
would have got them completely vacated.
Kalyani Shankar : Militancy may be on
the wane in the North-East, but there are threats of Maoists spreading
their network. How do you propose to deal with the Maoists
establishing contact with the insurgent outfits like ULFA and the NSCN-IM
in the region?
GK Pillai : The culture in the
North-East is quite different and it is a whole series of ethnic
identities which are in one sense bursting out, if you want to say it,
in the North-East and mistakes were made in the first decade after
independence, I think for which we are in one sense paying the price
even now. But, I think there is a greater understanding and I think
the recent steps which we have taken like LTC for all by air to the
North-East is helping a lot of people to mingle and understand each
other’s cultures. I think we have a lot to learn from them.
Kalyani Shankar : Is there any
forward movement in the Naga peace talks? Also, you had been in
Manipur recently to persuade Muivah from entering Manipur to visit his
village. Will he listen to you? And moreover, the NSCN has submitted
a list of 30 demands. How far is the Government willing to meet their
demands?
GK Pillai : The Government of India
have made it very clear and I have myself stated that both sovereignty
as well as the integration of Naga areas is literally out of the
question because we don’t want to create more problems. We have to
find imaginative solutions to try and deal with this type of
situation. The interlocutor has had good talks, a number of proposals
are on the table and I am quite hopeful, because the civil society in
Nagaland is extremely keen that a solution be found.
Kalyani Shankar : Manipur is almost
burning and you have been persuading Muivah not to visit there. So,
what is the way out ?
GK Pillai : I think it was
unfortunate. I think his demand or his request to go to his home
village is something which could have been accepted. But I think the
timing was wrong because of the fact that there was the District
elections coming up and the known opposition of the NSCN-IM to the
holding of District elections was a severe provocation. We understand
his request to visit his village. Now, we have advised him that he
should wait till the situation is more conducive for his visit.
Kalyani Shankar : Now, are you
concerned about Manipur, the situation on the ground level now ?
GK Pillai : Yes, we are concerned
about it, we have spoken with the Chief Minister, we understand his
concerns, we have told him that the territorial integrity of Manipur
is not there for negotiation and Government of India is totally
committed to the territorial integrity of Manipur. And I am hopeful
that when the situation normalises, I think in one sense, both sides
would show the wisdom and vision to move forward.
Kalyani Shankar : During the Budget
session, there was a lot of furor about phone-tapping. Is the
Government proposing to make amendments to the 1880 Indian Telegraph
Act to include new sections for regulation and control of use of air
interception equipments.
GK Pillai : Yes, we have noted the
concerns which had been raised in the Parliament and we are proposing
certain amendments to the Indian Telegraph Act with the Department of
Telecom and we hope that we should be able to make adequate
regulations to regulate the passive equipment which is available of
monitoring of telephone lines. We are hopeful that all equipments
which is in private hands will have to be surrendered. That would be
part of the regulation future.
Kalyani Shankar :
Commonwealth Games are just a few months away. Are you sure that we
will be able to conduct the games ?
GK Pillai : I am quite confident. I
think we have drawn up very elaborate security arrangements. We have
even an international security liaison group with security experts
from Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada and so on. They have
vetted our arrangements. They are quite happy with the arrangements as
they are and we would, of course, be continuing to upgrade the
security in the light of the threat situation as it develops.
The
interviewer Kalyani Shankar is senior journalist.
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